New Delhi Times - Gaurav Bhatnagar reporting from New Delhi, India

If by Violence you mean violence against some other innocent people then no sane person will argue against that. But if you dont fight it or the govt dont fight it then what do you do? Just sit and wait for the untimely death? Or meet the demands of the terrorists(in this case a rule of Sheria as SIMI dreams of)?
Violence against terrorist and their supporter is definitely a solution. It has succeeded in couple of places in India itself.

I meant violence as in waging war akin to how Israel does it in Palestine or US did in Iraq. Of course we need to nail the terrorists. But such incidents often lead to a call for war against Pakistan. That is not gonna help.

Gaurav,

I salute you man. I wrote a post on the exact same topic today.

http://krishworld.com/politics/2006/07/12/how-long-can-india-keep-quiet/

You are 100% right in what you have said. It is unfortunate that when the whole world is fantasizing about having Gandhi in their country, we want to go the violent path. I hope people realize that the only thing that separates a sane person from these terrorist is the resistance to violence. Good work.

You talk like a helpless person who has given up. Violence breeds violence but its necessary sometimes. Countries like US are much safer today because they have taken super strong steps (and they can) to curb and fight terrorism. To tackle violence by "peaceful" means is a totally irrational step. _It_ has never worked and history stands testimony to that. Strong steps against violence, sadly often involving killing of few innocents, is the only currently known full proof way to curb violence. If we as a country are not being able to take violent enough means thats the thing we should be crying about.

It remains to be seen if US is a safer place as a result of their offensive against Taliban and Iraq. Millions of little Iraqi kids have witnessed their country being subjugated by American forces. When they grow up, will they not have resentment against America? Would it be too surprising if some of them took to arms with a feeling of revenge? I am all for nailing the guilty. But widespread war is not gonna help. We will only lose more of our men. Even if we win the war (which I have no doubt we will), it will still not solve any problems. We have already won 4 wars against Pakistan but terrorism has only increased with time.

well violence != intelligence forces tracking down the criminals and giving adequate punishment. The world culture has seen many schools of thought, including barbaric treatment, compassion, neutral treatment etc. If there really had been a definite way of controlling such acts - they would have been controlled by now (maybe in 10A.D. or so) or at least a specific way sought out. Today all countries control crime only on basis of a judicial system and policing. what else? Just my 2 cents.

BTW thanks (for the car). I didnt realise u had a Honda city! when did u buy it? I thought you had a maruti or some small car. CEO type car eh? :p
Sonata - Merc lo yaar..

I think we really need a rethink of Gandgian virtues today. It got us the partition, left us a festering wound in the form of PoK and emboldens our enemies to strike a slap whenever they feel.
The need of the hour is to make sponsoring terrorism a costly affair for the sponsors aka the Pakis.To do this you not only hit at the terrorists, but also those near and dear viz a form of collective punishment. Israel does this and believes that the no of incidents and their intensity has come down as a result.Also once the terrorists realize that their loved ones can be held accountable for their actions, they will think twice about striking again.

My 2p worth.

TF - I always had a City. I am offended you thought I would be driving a small car. ;-) BTW my City is 5 years old and I bought it for much less than what a Santro (or definitely your Esteem) costs! Merc...mmm...dream on.....

Gaurav,

I would disagree. I am not saying we should go for full war with Pak. But, we should be aggressive enough to put our case properly. But whatever happened in kandahar gives me a very gloomy picture of how proactive and clear we are for our cause. I dont know if what US did was right or wrong, but I can see that they have not been attacked in last 5 years.

Prashant - I am not advocating Gandhian philosophy (though I do believe in his ideals to a great extent). My case against war does not arise from a love for peace. But from a pure cause-effect analysis, I don't see how waging war can reduce terrorism. I guess the uncomfortable fact that we avoid discussing is that cross broder terrorism can not thrive without local support. I think it is these traitors within the country that we should try to eliminate. War sucks!

Pravesh - the Kandahar episode was truly shameful. Yes, there hasn't been a terrorist attack in the US for 5 years. But they have still lost 1000s of lives and made too many enemies in the process.

I really don't know how to solve this problem! Perhaps nobody does!

Gaurav,

We did win the wars militarily in the past, but lost diplomatically every time round, Tashkent, Simla etc. due to spineless politicians.

I am not for all out war but for making terrorism costly for its sponsors. An article, if I can locate the URL mentions an ex-SIMI activist mention that funds are available from the gulf, Pakistan etc,.

We could engage in a low level campaign of assassination/terror against these sponsors (the Russians killed off Zelimkhan Yandarbiyev, a noted Chechen terrorist in Qatar).

Traitors exist everywhere and will continue to do so till end of time, but making things difficult for the sponsors in this way can not only cripple the terror netwiorks but also boost the morale of the people by conveying an impression that the state cares and is doing something.

War in its traditional sense is not the solution because of nuclear angle. We need to fight the proxy war. We need to inflitrate the terror network and their supporter and eliminate them. That will also include some in-direct actions against our neighbour. They started the war long time back its time to take the fight back to their homes.
GOI needs to invest more in building such snipper/commondo units than buying arms which never gets used.

The biggest problem is people think they can get away with anything in this country. There is no fear of anything -- thanks to lax laws and cunning politians.

Change the terror laws, and execute those involved/committed/responsible for terrorism via a special court. This will reduce the menace drastically, if not wipe out completely.

For every person here who think we need to fight some form of war with Pakistan because of terrorist activities in India should also realize that there is a person in Pakistan similar to you thinking of a proxy war with India for its alleged activities in destabilizing Pakistan and Muslims (it is his perception like you have your own perception). If you understand that the terrorist attacks are the result of a thinking similar to yours, you will not preach proxy war. The only way to eliminate terrorism is by reaching out to people on the other side and make them understand that we are like them. It will help isolate the terrorists and it will fade away.

It is quite unfortunate that many educated people think this way. This is the biggest difference between India and any other country in the world. Everywhere else, people with more education think of civilized approaches but in India you will find more educated people calling for war without understanding that it will lead nowhere. I am not blaming people here. I am just blaming our education system.

Every one is writing about what happened in Mumbai, so I thought it would be insane if I don't express my feelings. Although I have taken this task to talk and work about Himachal only as if I am able to do something for my small state I am able to do for motherland also at the same time, India, but this again and again violence in India is affecting every Indian, no matter where they are.

What I think is world is in very very wrong hands as of now! Last 2 days what I am watching on TV is also watched by my 7 years old son who is quite active to understand everything. His question was simple, Dad why all this, why this blast happened, why so many people dead in India. Although he has lived more in US and understands it more but deep down the young man is Indian, I don't know what I taught him but he knows India is home!

Well this is the same question every one needs to ask from their peers, after all why all this.

I am pretty sure even terrorists have families, if not kids, at least younger brothers, cousins and sisters.

In a civilized world and I am not saying there is this specific country only which is civilized, but what I am saying is that my 7 years old is able to understand that violence is bad I, so in simple way I think any one would have taught that any death in any part of the world is bad. Just by keeping this simple notion in mind that in any part any child would say, violence is bad, so why, after all why.

I agree we cant justify America's war on Iraq, every one knows its wrong and its creating more problems. So even if India attacks Pakistan, its not going to solve anything.

But at the end of the day the message is clear, Indian govt. is weak govt. From which angle you can justify its strong govt.?
Lalu Yadav is railways minister, all of us know he is deep down in corruption scandals. Shivraj Patil is home minister, who is not sent to parliament by people of India, in fact he was defeated in his home constituency.

Sonia Gandhi, well I don't want to mention. If my son even while growing up in US is unable to call US his home, how could Sonia call India its home?

And I am not saying this party is good and that bad. Every one is from same class, if Manmohan Singh is good man, so is Vajpayee, but none around them.

And its simple, although Dr. Singh runs govt., its bureaucracy and rest of his big cast of ministers who also are part of that and who are not pure, not clean.

So we in fact, we Indians, chose them, whether in Bihar out of compulsion, because there was gun on our heads or in Kashmir because state govt. machinery took us to cast votes.

What I am trying to say is that those who make decisions, are not part of the election process, its out of fashion for elite/educated class to go out and vote, its poor, rural class which votes and they vote where they see more food, wine or party!

So this is supposed to happen, Indian parliament is chosen by weaker people to keep it weak.

Oh my God what a destiny India has!

Its own people like all IT guys came to US, worked hard and people all the world started looking at India with a different prospective. 5-8 years back we were considered country of snake charmers, Bengal Tigers and Elephants.

But this new class of IT guys gave India a different meaning, why the heck this class and other educated classes are unable to give Indian politics a new meaning, they can change it and they have to, otherwise they would in fact they are one of the sufferers.

As they say, what the heck, my family is safe, I am living in good apartment complex etc etc.. But we all travel on same road and we live on same land.

Recently a youth (http://himachal.us/?p=458) was murdered in my town from my own state, the poor guy came all over from Himachal to do studies and finance it also. But he was murdered not because he was at wrong place at wrong time but because the world has changed. People are bad and this world has become bad, there is no point of doing more work or research or whatever progressive because all these crazy, nasty people are going to come and destroy everything.

The irony is India's leadership became weak time to time, I wont say it was always weak, we also had great leaders and due to them we got Independence or defeated foreign powers, but at the end of the day we don't send enough strong leaders, we just send couple of them and when they do good things we rejoice and start partying and once that leader is dead the whole process is dead.

So where exactly India is going wrong and this is what we all need to brainstorm.

Every time (other than Punjab) whenever we had terrorism problem, we dealt in poorest manner, whether it was Kandhar or Kashmir, we are giving wrong messages. Our Army is the best in world (what they heck, that's why these politicians are looting India) and they can handle everything quite well but they are controlled by people of likes Lalu Yadav, what a pity, even when they are ready to wipe out insurgency they are told to hold back because politicians have to see the bigger picture of vote bank.

So dear friends, wake up......if we can setup great companies we can set great parliament also and strong leaders and that call needs to germinate within us and I think that time is now or are we waiting for much bigger blow?

Gaurav, I agree. Violence isn't the solution. I just wish we would learn from past attacks and make our cities secure and resilient. We can then focus on fixing the real issues that are the roots of terrorism (disenfranchised minorities, alienation from society...)

Just look at the way we crushed Khalistan movement using our Army. It was hard at that time, we suffered collateral damage (lost a PM), but as of now, they are pretty extinct (except for some cowards hiding in Canada). And most of the younger generation Sikhs are happy they are still part of India. As long as the younger generation enjoys a high standard of life most of them are going to be happy that their previous generation terrorists were dealt with. Do you honestly think that if Palestinians were rich they would be as excited as now about revolutions? Modern Russians don't have any ill will against US eventhough they were big time enimies during Cold War (although they think they are cooler than everyone :))? In my opinion, if we ever go to war with Pakistan, we better annex it and promote the region, else the situation won't resolve. The country will remain poor and will take up terrorism as their percieved way towards a better life. Of course there will be countries like US, China etc who are scared of having a single powerful south asian country. Eeveryone keep saying Israel is wrong to have taken offensive, but do you think that country would even exist if they haven't done what they had? Remember, when Israel declared it's independence there were 6 established nations preparing their armies to crush Israel. Like someone pointed out earlier, US hasn't seen any terrorist attacks in it's home soil since 9/11, most probably due to the strong stance it took. So IMHO, its time to take off the Gandhian hat and put on a military helmet.

with my post i just hoped that the govt. would actually do something, rather than just giving sound bites on NDTV. Atleast come out and blame the real masterminds sitting across the border. Stop talking to them, they use violence as a tool to bring us to the table, don't let them do that. But, i doubt anything will come of this, people will forget about in a month or two. Politicians or the govt. can't do anything.

Those who opine friendliness with people of neighboring hostile countries, etc etc etc, are living in a fantasy world. Sadly, the human race has not lived without fighting wars in every era, every century. Lets face it - to some extent war is necessary. The fact to realize is that these wars are waged by few (the greedy rulers) but history blames the entire race or nation. You think making friends with Pakistanis is going to stop terrorist attacks? The agenda of the terrorists is driven by few people. Pakistani citizens are just like us - busy day to day earning their bread, raising their kids. They dont conspire to kill Indians and the same way in India. We speak harshly about them but we would not kill. So who kills - its the Pakistani Government. How do you curb such things : War. Sorry Gaurav, our notions from books of peace of an ideal world do not apply to this big bad world. We must wage war to secure our own homes and in doing so we end up destroying others. But we did save our own home. Sure, it raised thousands of "martyrs" on the other side who threaten our future generations and the cycle keeps continuing. But thats the way it is !

Speaking in stern words and doing nothing about it makes you look like a sissy. Unfortunately to some extent I think we do look like one. Talk of US : dude these guys are the bosses around. They _rule_ this world. Good or bad? Who decides? You ask people in US - the liberalists would say "Bad Bad government" but the majority supports the "war on terror". And the war on terror like any other war kills lot of innocents, only in this case it has gone beyond tolerable limits.

Somebody said that the bad elements come from within our own country - traitors. But they believe in a cause and they adhere to that. Know what, dont try to tell people what is right (namely patriotism etc). Society always works on rules - patriotism should not be a moral quality, it should be an enforced requirement. In the books of law it is, but is it in practise? Agreed, most Muslims in India are good people, but there are some with vicious motives (at least look vicious to us - to them its service to God!). Are there such Hindus or Christians. Maybe ... but lets face it frankly : Truly truly frankly - the war on terror is a war against a certain class of Muslims. And yet, and yet, even when the whole thing is crystal clear, our Government would avoid the slightest reference to anything against Muslims. Why? VOTE BANK - not because our laws require so. Its time to be awake and realize that without special look out for the Muslims organizations/people who may be disruptive to the peace of the nation the problem is simply beyond scale. I am not saying we should treat Muslims differently, but we do need to keep a more careful eye on Muslims and Muslim organizations. Is it a war? YES - this is the war against terror. Innocents will be harmed. Lifes of certain peaceful and good Muslim people will be disturbed, they will be under suspiscion but to whose benefit - our whole society. In US this has been enforced very wisely and very tactfully and very covertly and very very very successfully.

Lets learn from how US has fought terrorism. Lets not be the super cool, educated, liberal etc etc etc junk of this world whose sole purpose is to sound the Messiah of the human race by talking all garbage of peace but not being able to suggest any effective means. Let these book worm theoretical sissies living in their fantasy world grow up. Since we cant stop them speaking what they want, let them continue with their rant. For us we gotta solve a problem to make our childrens future better and we should solve it - war or no war.

oh well - don't know why I thought you had a zen or indica or some such (I remember you complaining abt frequent tyre punctures on old ggn road and most long cars come with tubeless tyres..maybe that's why). And 5 years? Hasn't it been only abt 2-3 years since you came back from pardes? And less than wht a santro costs?! u mean less than ~3.5Lakh? Now dont get offended again, but is it second hand or what? :p :)
BTW sent u a mail on ur gmail, yet to get ur response (ur cell number which I lost)

BTW is this a comment section or a blog service provider! ppl are writing entire blogposts here :p

and BTW no. 2, why do I need to fill in my info over and over again in spite of checking that "remember personal info" checkbox? Another bug for u to get fixed :p

Yes, using violence against terrorism does help. Yes, world is a much safer place now.

Your example of Iraq is flawed. Iraq war either from the fear of WMD, or about oils, but definitely not about curbing terrorism.

On the other hand, the massive raid in Afghanistan, and parts of pakistan (with cooperation of govts from both these countries) did produce outstanding results. These raids slowed down so many operational camps, sacked all financial networks of terrorist groups, and virtually broke their spines.

So what that Osama never got captured? That was never the purpose. He is pretty much crippled now.

While the attacks in Mumbai are of very massive scale, on the whole, the terrorism is much more under control now than 2 years back.

I think I way to fight or stand against Terrorism is by not getting terrorised. The very next morning of the Mumbai blasts, I had called up or chatted with quite a few friends in Mumbai and they were all ready to go to work or called it 'a part of life'. I guess that's the spirit of Mumbai and more than a govt. or a social body, it's the society at large whose positive approach can help fight and prevent terrorism.

Try posing this theory of non voilence and letting the terriost burn out to people who lost loved ones in the mumbai blasts or people who have lost their loved ones over the period of last 50 years.

Calculate the total numbers of lifes india has lost to terriosm and calculate it to would be casualities if india takes or would have taken a military action against a terriost nation.

what we need to do now is take some agrresive stance , my friend we no longer live in a period where non violence bears it fruits now you need to reply to people who only understand the language of voilence with volience.

I am not asking to wage a war against pakistan but india should ask pakistan to dismantel its terriost network , if it doesnt listen dismantel it our selfs. its high time.

gandhi will never work in the world we live in today , and dont get me started on his policies before also.if india would have got independence through the ways of bhagat singh etc it would have been a different country whole together.

Nitin, the debate about Gandhi, violence and non-violence turns out to be a very vast topic. The point that I was trying to make here is how can the society, as a whole, or the common people can help in these circumstances. Ok, even if we reply be military action, does the common people not have any role to play? Should everything be left to the govt.? Doesn't the fearless attitude of common people play any part in figting terrorism? What if, after the blasts, the common people of Mumbai, instead of helping each other would have got terrorised and run away to their own homes?
The Govt. certainly has a crucial role to play but no democratic govt. can succeed without the support and help from the masses.

Krish,

Reach out to the other side for what ??? Thats like preaching love and non violence to Attila the Hun and Genghis Khan. BTW, they would have finished off Hitler's job had the Israelis adopted the love and reach out line.

I would also like to blame the education system for it has turned us into a nation of wimps. Our politicians are bullies at home and sheep outside. Also for every terrorist bred outside because of our reaction, please note that we are a billion strong (?) and rising ie in a war of attrition, we can hand out the message that even after you are spent we still have enough left to deal with you.

This may sound as crass and regardless of the worth of human life, but I believe it to be the right language to talk to people who hold human life in a low worth.

prashant has made a very good point.our poilticans are equally to be blamed for the these bomb blasts as the terriost.

What the congress govt has done over the last 2 years is made it easy for the terriost to come to india.Before they were may be walking thousand of miles , crossing mountains and then entering india, now we have opened buses for them to enter into india.

SK,I am not at all talking about the mumbaiarks spirit here, people in india really do come out and help in these situations, but you must understand that this message though sends terriosts a negative signal but the same attitude is taken as a postive sign by the ruling goverment as the people are with them and they show themselfs as helpless.

Politicans in this country need to become answerable to the people , were they sleeping when huge amounts of RDX was being shipped into this country , they need to give answers at least this time i hope.

nitin

If someone is interested in hindi literature, there is this epic by Ramdhari Singh 'Dinkar' called 'Kurukshetra' dealing with the problem of war and it's causes and these lines summarize it's basic conclusion :-

"Shaanti nahin tab tak jab tak sukh bhaag na nar ka sam ho;
nahin kisi ko bahut adhik ho, nahin kisi ko kam ho!"

It is futile to look for lasting peace through violence and destruction and our only hope lies in prosperity for all through development and education (not literacy). This might sound cliched but lets ask ourselves, isn't it true?

However, it is also important for us, as individuals and as a nation to be strong and potent enough to protect ourselves. But strength of a nation or individuals does not mean military strength alone.

Tushar,

Peace through prosperity and devlopment is and should no doubt be the ideal for everybody, but there is something else known as envy. Unrestrained envy leads to covetousness and this in turn has manifested in the many raids on India through the North Western frontiers in the past be it through PoK now or the Khyber of yore.

Economic strength is of no succour unless backed by military might as a handful of terrorists showed that having billions of $ in reserves counts for nothing.